Open and honest debate

WARNING: This posts contains unprovoked rants.

If you are going to hold forth with staunchly held incendiary opinions on your blog then you really should provide a mechanism for response, be it comments (you don’t have to publish them) or an email address (you don’t have to read them), as it will prevent me from having to cite entire blog posts in a manner that makes it look like I’m rounding on you as opposed to engaging in an open and honest debate. Yes Movement invites movement I’m writing about you. Your approach smacks of the priest railing down on people from the pulpit and then using his position and authority to quench dissension. I know the establishment of the “colonies” allowed for many to flee across the Atlantic seeking “to” practise and persecute as they saw fit, but those of us who remained in Europe sought to diminish the power of those priests gaining freedom “from” such control and we really don’t like it when people try it on.

First of all if you are going to quote in large tracts then use the smegging blockquote tags provided. It’s the sixth button from the left in the editing panel. It’s really helpful in distinguishing your diatribe from others.

Not too long after a new “tanguero” pranced (oops moved) into town, a friend of ours commented that watching this guy dance made her seasick. This prompted me to post the following quote on my Facebook page and it lead to an interesting debate with a tango friend.

The quote:

New “Nuevo Tango” Sacrifices Tradition and Grace

…”There is a kind of (for lack of a better term) tribal European dance that many people believe is tango, which is indeed called tango, in which the basic precepts of Argentine tango dance are being ignored, things like a proper lead, following the music, knowing the history of the dance and the music, respecting your partner, dressing well. These are concepts one would think would be the bread and butter of tango, which has traditionally been the most difficult social dance in the world, and one of the most beautiful…..

…I call it Playground Tango.

There is a great deal of this in North America and Europe, and it is all quite self-congratulatory. It represents a break from the old. Indeed it looks down its nose at the old as “revolutionary,” “alternative,” and “organic.’”

The full article can be found here.

Did you honestly expect the tango to go out into the world and remain pristine? Christianity and Islam couldn’t achieve that! How do expect a dance from the shores of the La Plate to do any better. Its origins lie in the meeting of many cultures why exactly did you expect it to stop subsuming new elements.

This is how the previously mentioned debate began:
Tanguera wrote:

I sort of understand how you feel. As a painter and a student of literature and art, it infuriates me to see what some people will call art these days, and even worse is the kind of awed reception that “art” receives. I wish that there were a different name for it, as in “This here, this Michelangelo, this is art. What you do, splatters on a canvas, that is not art. Call it something else.” I allow myself that pretension because I’m an artist, so being in the loop, we artists get to judge each other. Obviously, it means nothing to other people whether I respect their art or not, and it shouldn’t, because it’s just my personal opinion.

We live in a post Doyle Dane Bernbach world now. We are subjected to more and more visual and stylised imagery than ever before. So much of the creative pursuits are wrapped up in this world that to feel that they are producing something authentic and ‘non-commercialised’ artists have to break out into wacky new territory. Art has been pushed so far out that many people are disconnected from it. Also there is the over-swing against the importance of art criticism, where an artists fortunes rose and fell with the stroke of key critics pens, to one where no ones opinion is important.

Now, you’re a dancer, and you know a lot more about dancing than I do. I look at it as less of an art form that has to be preserved, and more of just a way of having fun. If I have a good connection with someone, or someone knows how to make me laugh, then I’ll enjoy dancing with him better than with someone who has amazing technique but dances “at” me instead of dancing “with” me. I like nuevo because to me, it’s more intense, more passionate than the bouncy staccato old tangos, and it also allows you to be playful and expess a sense of humour and individuality with your dancing.

Quite frankly this is the best and probably only reason for dancing nuevo. Doing it because you enjoy it. Because there is something in it that speaks to you. Personally I don’t dance nuevo ‘figures’ because its shapes aren’t my shapes. I don’t see the nuevo-esque opportunities in the music but if others do, fine.

I dance everything, I follow whatever is being led, old and new. I’ve danced with well-dressed creeps who dance traditional, just like I’ve danced with decent guys who look like they’re on their way to the gym. hehehe, preference? Well-dressed decent guys, of course. And I always dress up because it makes me feel better. But as long as people are doing what makes them feel good, then I’m happy for them. You know, if it makes you happy to splatter paint on a canvas, go for it. It makes someone happy to buy it. Incomprehensible to me, but as long as it makes you happy, there’s no harm. People aren’t going to stop appreciating Michelangelos.

Isn’t it odd that the problem of dressing down is limited to males. Possibly because few have experienced the comfort of a well fitting suit and because the only time they’ll end up wearing a suit is at an interview, a funeral or a wedding. The first two of which are not very pleasant experiences and the third often involves long periods sitting on uncomfortable pews. Thankfully the women have kept the style quotient up. Way to go girls.

I replied (with Jorge’s help):

As I say, someone has always said it better than I can… so I’ll paste a quote here and add a couple comments after. This quote is from Irene & Man Yung’s Tango blog:

Irene writes:

“The milongueros and old masters, with their vast dancing experience and knowledge of tango, try to go to foreign countries to teach foreigners how to feel and dance their music. But no-one is taking their classes because they are not interested in “50’s/40’s/30’s style tango” or whatever “old-fashioned thing” they are teaching – while people flock to nuevo workshops or workshops with the trendiest label or most peculiar flavour. People are not learning how to listen to the music or to connect with the music or each other – instead of learning to love the dance and dancing it for itself, people are conditioned to seek the biggest egotistical, physical or intellectual thrill – the fanciest, showiest and most challenging new step; the most complicated, arcane, far-fetched theories of tango. And when the thrill is gone – they move on to the next thing.”

Why oh why does their persist this concept that upon the exit of the Junta the needle could be returned to the record and the dance would continue on without a break in the beat? The record has moved on! The world has moved on! Yes people are attracted by the brightest, flashiest, trendiest, newest thing. It’s a bright and flashy world. I don’t advocate the teaching of flashy steps just to draw the punters but this fickle world has no need of fossils.

That said, I’ll add some comments I thought of while reading your comments… I’m happy you feel more passion dancing Nuevo and that is your experience of it, which I can’t take away. But that is one of the many things I dislike about Nuevo: that it is such a dead and soul-less dance – specifically becuz it’s butchering a dance that has such intense emotion (and culture) attached to it.

These thoughts of ours are actually not due to us being “dancers”. They come from having had an Argentinean teacher, having read www.tangoandchaos.org, having read other tango blogs, and having taken a more serious interest in the music, which all have led to us being a little more knowledgeable of the culture of the dance.

I’ve had an Argentinian teacher. I’ve read widely. Yet I feel no urge to be the ultimate judge of what is and isn’t tango or to transpose directly one culture onto another.

Tango is not Salsa. Salsa is for fun/humour/joy/sex/etc. So what I think and what I’ll say is: People who want a “fun” dance shouldn’t be dancing Tango. Tango is so much deeper than other dances. Tango is to spirituality as other social partner dances are to religion. Tango really does take a level of maturity and humility that other dances don’t…

Snobbish sentiments such as these are exactly what drove Naviera et al to create nuevo tango as a spin-off rather than staying within the establishment. Tango is fun. OK it’s not smiley fun, but it’s fun. And it’s humorous and guess what… it’s about sex.

“Staccato” tango?… that’s very confusing to me Again, Nuevo is the jerky/bouncy and not very flowing dance… you’ll notice that many “nuevo” dancers choose to dance to Biagi or D’Arienzo when they don’t use an alternative piece becuz those orchestras are very staccato in their style of playing. Nuevo is truly for high level dancers – generally with a background in ballet and who have first studied Argentine Tango extensively. The body awareness that is needed to produce the lines and projectile movements can usually only be done (nicely) by these experienced dancers.

You know if you’d expressed your opinion that nuevo is for the highly trained a little earlier it would’ve made everything a lot clearer.

Dancing Nuevo without having or seeking the knowledge of what Tango really is and where it comes from, is like the stereotypical American imposing their beliefs/thoughts/actions on the foreign country they are visiting. Not surprisingly, Americans tend to be the ones butchering tango the most (hence the term “American Bastardized Tango”).

Seeking to plant tango into a seed bed that you haven’t properly prepared or understand is going to do just as much damage.

–I can be really tetchy when pushed.